What is Flayrah's future?
Once, Flayrah was the the only place to find information on the Furry fandom. You might see a comment on a board or on IRC, perhaps LiveJournal, but there were not a lot of options. The few conventions out there would make a post here, perhaps some themed newsletter, but that was about it. You knew you could find Flayrah with news on it.
Now, over the years the fandom has developed, but the news mediums really have not. There are more diverse sources out there, but many are self-seeking. I won't go into that. More power to them is all. Yes, you can say Furry News Network, but it never really got going. A year? Maybe two. It copied a lot of the stories here, and occasionally something new would pop up. But that died out soon enough.
The fandom is constantly growing and furries want news, but do they know where to find it? I don't think so. I looked at the visitor stats below. They represent what a meet might have, and are not a good representation of the fandom's numbers.
Are you still reading this, or strayed to another story? If anything, this is a story that goes un-read and not acted upon. That's OK; I'm used to it.
So how do we get the word out there? Well, for one, Furry conventions – all of them – should place on their website a link to Flayrah. It costs them nothing. If they write a story concerning their con, what does it hurt to boost the venue that promotes them? It might even get them more attendees in the future.
Next, if the con provides a conbook, place an ad in there or least areas where furs can find information. LiveJournal, Fur Affinity, Facebook, Twitter; these are all venues most cons use already – as of course Flayrah does.
I don't see Flayrah being proactive about this. They ought to get some banner art made. If it is a question of funds, provide artists free ad space. They eat that stuff up. The cons that use this site for readership to gain attendees can post a banner on their website. Now it looks spiffy.
It would be nice to see the fandom work together more. Perhaps the big sites out there could exchange banners more, so that furs can learn about what else is out there. Podcasts, which I guess never mention Flayrah, and well why should they? I am sure they never write up articles here looking for furs to check out their site.
Well I am tired of writing now. Help out. Do some artwork for this entity of the fandom before it dries up and is gone like FNN is. On a side note, FNN did carry some good fluff ideas that Flayrah should consider. Spotlighting Fursuiters was pretty cool. I would say take that up a notch and consider other furs of the fandom too.
I am going to over to FA now and look at some... art there; yeah, that is it.
About the author
Draconis — read stories — contact (login required)a Gargoyle from Norman Oklahoma
Jugular Jaguar and Calamity Cougar as a Fursuiter, Furry Drama Show Director, Convention organizer and Staff, Photographer and Videographer
Comments
You're right; this isn't the Internet of a decade ago, and thank goodness for that! Furs today don't need Flayrah to find the latest fursuit videos, or ask a question, or promote their conventions, or artwork; sites like Reddit, WikiFur and furry-specific social galleries handle that, far better than we can.
But there is still a need for news, and a hunger for original content – so, upon our relaunch, I refocussed Flayrah on original in-depth news and features. Most of what we do wouldn't qualify as "long form" elsewhere, but it's longer than much of Flayrah's output at the turn of the decade, and perhaps more considered than you'll see in most furry journals.
Getting the word out there is always hard. We're not the most social news site on the planet, but I've ensured that Flayrah's stories have a first-class presence on Twitter, with feeds on Facebook, Tumblr and LiveJournal, and I've developed relationships with Google News and other sites. More could be done here – e.g. a Fur Affinity/Inkbunny/SoFurry cross-poster – but it requires my attention, which is in short supply.
On that note, I'm not keen to spend time (mine, or that of our contributors) on stories of little impact. Some news is just a link, and while in the past that would rate a whole post, today that is what a Newsbyte is for. This means we are able to give time to stories which deserve it. I'd hesitate to promote the posting of "fluff"; but we're not turning away legitimate stories about fursuiters (or any other furs). We simply do not get many, and my own hands are overfull with the words of others. Perhaps Kijani Lion would care to move his column over to Flayrah?
We could do more with promotion – and yet, there's a tension between this goal and our mission, especially when working with events. Review our convention coverage; you'll find contributors are as likely to take a critical position as a congratulatory one, and have a habit of pointing out awkward facts. While furry boosting may once have been the goal (and such pieces are still permitted, within reason), we're here to write the first rough draft of furry history: the good and the bad. This is to our contributors' credit – if we don't hold those in power accountable, who will? – but it makes me hesitant to request favours of event organizers. Indeed, we have already been denied permission to buy a dealer's table at one convention, based on our coverage. (It may be interesting if we pick up Best Magazine there later this year.)
Then there's the question of integrity. If a convention gives us free or reduced-rate placement, do we owe them? Of course, we could provide material for others to use, if they choose. It's just a matter of time to make it. Unfortunately (or not, depending on your point of view), my editing queue is never empty – and that tends to get priority, because traffic is increasing as we put out good content:
Podcasts haven't promoted themselves here for a while, but that may be because we already feature each of their episodes in our sidebar. As it happens, we have good relations with at least one: FurCast, who regularly read our stories on air – including yours about Misora Rae – and link back to us (providing about 0.25% of visits, or 1% of referrals). Others are welcome to do so as well, if they find our content relevant.
And about that content; it's up to everyone. We have a regular movie column because crossaffliction took it upon himself to make one. We have copious reviews because Fred and others write them. We have regular summaries of ARP findings because I create them. Every story exists because someone found it important enough to write about. There's no quota – no pressure beyond that sense of duty each journalist knows – and we'll publish almost anything with furry relevance. If you see some higher hand in our output, it's an illusion. :-)
One last thought: Flayrah isn't for everyone. Many are satisfied browsing new submissions, and catching up with their friends, or fursuiting, or roleplaying, and have no interest in what we cover; and that's OK. For those who want more, we'll be there – now, and in years to come.
I'm not so pessimitic about the future. Things have been increasing. 100 views may not seem like a lot for a story, but considering I've been on FA for 6+ years and only got 1,800 views of my profile page while here I've had 120 on my profile in the past month I think it stands to reason Flayrah has more relevance to me, or me more relevance to it than FA does. We may not have an FA level, but that's because a lot more furries in this fandom are interested in art, creating it, or buying it. The demand for non-fiction or talking about the fandom is a lot less.
That's to be expected, as a group we tend to be about having fun and collecting art. Only a small subset of us think about the future or past of the fandom, I feel many of the younger fans live in the moment, the past and the future are of littler interest and aren't something they think of too much. A lot of our demographic are older furs, however I think we're growing ever so slowly, which for a site that isn't really of the main interest of our fandom is not a bad deal.
That being said I think Furry News Network did a far better job of promoting itself. It still gets quite a few views even though it's essentially dead. A good chunk of our article views come from the reposts made there. I will admit, I'm a terrible promoter. I don't hold my stuff up and go; "I'm awesome love me". I figure if what I have is worth seeing people will eventually see it. I'm getting better in this and have been starting to post links to my own articles on my FA page. I spend a lot of time on these things... far more then I really should.
If we pay for advertising at conventions I think that would be fine, I don't expect us to be given anything for free.
What I've been doing seems to be working so far, being as fair and as honest as I can, being myself while trying to understand that others are who they are. I think that's something that not only furries want, but people in general. Not only using one's voice to say "this is a problem" but to think of solutions to those problems and offer them. It's getting rarer and rarer these days.
I've never been one to desire celebrity or to want more power. In fact I do my best to avoid it (Hufflepuff-ish I suppose). However I seem to find myself able to sift though data and find things that I find interesting, and it's a good deal of fun to try and tidy a mess of information into something coherent. For that kind of hobby, it's a good time to be alive...
As I recall, FNN's most effective "promotion" was to run a bot to follow people on Twitter. I admit this boosted their follower count, but I don't think it's an honest way to build an audience. They still get traffic, but not a lot (compare).
Overall, FNN has helped us reach an additional audience. It pains me to know many visit and leave having just seen the summary - often poorly presented on their end, which I've suggested fixes for. On the plus side, those people did not use our resources (images are cached). Flayrah's contributors also know their stories will get to FNN's remaining readers.
One thing that annoys me about them is they don't enable comments on the stories. That would've made things better. I used to watch them until I realised they were mostly just a mirror of this site with some podcast links thrown in.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
FNN used to have comments. Then they got spammed. They had a forum, and it was spammed too.
It's one thing to setup a shiny new site with all modern conveniences; there's also a considerable maintenance burden. I do lot of work behind the scenes just to stay on top of patches for existing functionality, and often reach out to or assist developers with issues affecting Flayrah.
A couple of weeks ago I installed several new anti-spam modules to resolve a rash of automated spam that was evading our filters, and tweaked existing modules to use new blocklists. Unfortunately, spam filtering is a feature that most users notice only in its absence. Headline features have to be developed separately (and have their own maintenance burden).
We've had that problem on the ZAFur forum. I'm not up-to-date on that sort of thing but eventually one of the admins just shut down new registrations and now it's done by request only.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
Let it grow and see where it goes :) I love that it has contributors based on no connection beyond furryness.
It's spawning new things too...
Site under construction about furries plus music. http://fuzzynotes.org/ - It will be interesting to see how well it collects content by focusing on a specific part of a niche hobby.
Run by: http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Potoroo
Roo asked me to contribute based on a few music-related posts here. I have fun ideas, some already mostly done, some vague intentions...
- a scene crossover post about furries + music genre, with DJ interviews
- Regular interviews of DJ's (there seem to be a lot of those compared to other musicians in this fandom)
- Spottacus is a fairly well known fursuiter who does fursuiting at big concerts (Radiohead etc) and has many videos and photos of himself with the bands... ongoing feature, maybe, http://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Spottacus
- Voice actors, I know a few pro's to interview.
I believe the issue is greater than just promoting oneself and greater issues outside the fandom. There been a fundamental shift how we access information from bulletin boards to World Wide Web forums, to personal web pages, to blogs and now to social networking. With social networking among many furs, who are in the millennial generation there is tendency for the generate to isolate themselves to their peer group. They do not feel the need to go outside their Facebook circle friends for information; what important to them is not any outside news source but what go posted on the Facebook All or Reedit
I am no saying flayrah is not important, We need this news site but this the problem Flayrah faces in my opinion.
Maybe one of the things Flayrah could do is to get a FA and FB page?
Flayrah already has an active Facebook page, and a Fur Affinity account (inactive, like our G+ page, because there is no way to auto-post to it).
The issue with Facebook is that if people want to discuss a post, they come here - which is good for the site, but not for our Facebook presence. Most of our posts there are only seen by ~20-30 people. However, this isn't a big enough issue that I'm minded to do anything about it (e.g. replace our current system with Facebook Comments).
Arguably we're not using social media to the fullest, but I'm not spending hours on FB every week. That time is better spent here.
Though I'm one of the quiet ones typically, I have to say I do hope flayrah continues and grows. It provides a very useful resource for the fandom, with a lot of interesting links and content that would otherwise be missed due to the background noise.
I'd like to make a quick suggestion, which is that you have an excellent staff, but exposure is hard to come by. FNN kind of handled some of this by just writing little tidbits about everything so that there was a serious information base coming out, but it always seemed too scatter-shot and too much. Convention-related news (note that my bias will show in the next paragraph here) seems to be the most long-lived news type, and something that kind of has that multiplier effect by default. It teaches people what's going on, who's who, and really shows what the fandom can be at its best, when we come together to do things for each other and others too.
Amusingly enough, Arizona Fur Con (full-disclosure: I'm a staff member) is actually going through the reverse of the exact problem you describe with social networks! Between the various social networks and already established Arizona Furs forums, we end up in a situation where the main website is only really used as a reference and registration point. It's been sort of fragmenting our content and making it fairly difficult to have a cohesive image, though our new site should help with that when it launches in a few days. I'm guessing we're not the only convention with that problem, as there are quite a few now, and it must be difficult to track who's going where, for guests, friends, and everything else.
I used to seek out and write coverage of new and upcoming conventions. I stopped doing that because I had no time; however, if anyone wishes to take on that beat, it's there. We also accept newsletters and announcements, with the understanding that they will be tagged as such and edited like any other post.
It is not hard to get published on Flayrah. Our contributors are not hand-picked; they registered and submitted a story. Our "staff writers" were crazy enough to do so more than once.
Hopefully your designer is able to integrate your social outposts into the new website. We don't have a Twitter widget here because it would effectively duplicate our posts/Newsbytes, but it makes a lot of sense for a convention, etc. What you want is core content (including forums) on your site, not spread out all over the place - but if something pops up elsewhere, it should be available somehow on the site as well. Not an easy task, I know.
Now, a sidenote: I get real tetchy when conventions throw their web presence away, sometimes every year. They're dumping their Google rankings and making it harder for their members. I understand that staff change, but it's not a good excuse to switch frameworks at the drop of the hat. Heck, when we changed to Drupal, I made sure to keep the old content alive, and the old URLs working. Anthrocon handles this properly; they update pages and their URLs don't change from year to year.
Good to know! If that's the case, I'll have to see if I can put something together for AFC if nothing else (fully acknowledging that you'll edit it as you see fit). (I don't currently plan to attend any more cons until then, but perhaps after I might think about writing about a few others for ya too!)
And yep, we're planning on having a bit more integration on the new site, with updated forums and the like. Transitioning those over will be a bit tricky, but we'll manage. :)
I know exactly what you mean with that sidenote. I actually wondered if they realized what they were doing on that front. Oddly, a lot of them also don't update their WikiFur articles either, with information on past events and all that. Having folks know what you have managed to do well is a great way to convince them you're going to do well this year too! (I'll note that our own page is a touch out of date, too, but it'll be revved with the new site.)
I understand. Link plz. cough, cough.
Not sure what you mean . . . there's links in the comment, and our social pages are also linked on the header (next to the search box). Or perhaps you were replying to something else?
Sorry I could not see the URL colouring that tells you there is URL link there.
Well, you can’t say Furry News Network isn’t occasionally hilarious.
I liked FNN. I could could not submit a story to there for some reason or another. So when I saw they just copied from Flayrah I just submitted here and let them copy it.
I think this site has a future. I think we might need to work harder though. For example I'm disappointed as I watch this becoming less like a news site and more like a review site. I think it might be good to split the main page and let reviews change more rapidly while more serious content lingers. We could perhaps use more exposure but it's hard thing to just create. I post all my Flayrah stories as journals with links to the original page. I don't know how much that helps but I hope it does something. Yet I saw comments for the Ursa Major Award where a person on SoFurry didn't know what the WikiFur project or [adjective][species] was about. It might actually be good to try get the latter on board here as I've seen some really good posts over there and they have some big names.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
I've looked into a new front page design. Screens are becoming wider and it may make sense to increase our front page width, which would give us additional options. However, we also have to adapt to the use of mobile technology; increasingly, our readers use devices with narrower and shorter screens. It's a challenge.
As for the content mix: I post what I get. I appreciate the difficulty of writing news, but reviews also have literary value, and they draw their share of visitors (of whom ~20-50% stick around for another page). We have over week of content on the front page; longer features are linked in the header for months, and search can reach them after that.
I met up with [adjective][species]'s Makyo at FC2013 and we had a good chat over dinner. As much as I believe Flayrah is a great platform for writers, the fandom is best served with a variety of active non-fiction sites - and there's a limit to how much we can publish, at least until I can bring on more editorial staff. For now, we've been linking back and forth as appropriate without any specific arrangement.
I'm just a contributor over at [a][s], and I can't speak for Makyo, but I think some collaboration would be great. Flayrah is a great resource, and important to furry in general, in my opinion.
I've shied away from publicizing [a][s] here on Flayrah. I did it once, maybe 9 months ago, and I got the impression from the commenters that I was taking advantage of Flayrah, using it to draw more people to something I'd written rather than adding something to the site. (I also recall that Greenreaper spent much-appreciated time and effort, adding links and a few sentences and generally improving things.)
Keep in mind that [a][s] is less than 2 years old, and it's only recently that it has gained enough regular contributors to reach critical mass, where readers can rely on something appearing every week or so. I'm sure that it took Flayrah a while to get to that point, and I guess it's something that FNN doesn't quite manage.
Looking at the piece, while there was some mild criticism of [a][s], it wasn't directed towards the mention of the article. You may be thinking of this (and this comment), which was a more straightforward case of "link and quote".
Flayrah took a while to gain contributors after its relaunch. If you compare 2010, 2011 and 2012, there's a clear progression. I think we had a lot of good content in every year, but our style of coverage has broadened.
Thanks for the links. I think you're right. But even in the case of the HIV article, I wasn't really adding anything in my post here on Flayrah: it was just a link to [a][s] and a couple of comments to put it in some context.
I think Rakuen's comment (from the other thread you linked to) is about right: there's not much value in simply linking and quoting.
I have no doubt that the occasional [a][s] article might be considered newsworthy in its own right. They would probably more likely to be those written by our higher-profile contributors, like Phil Geusz (maybe his recent one giving advice to first-time conventions, or his struggle to get mainstream publishers to take furry books seriously).
I remember that now. I like [a][s] and I like Flayrah. Ideally I'd like [a][s] to merge into Flayrah. :p But, more realistically, I think it'd be cool for the sites to work together. I don't want to see articles on Flayrah that just link to [a][s] though, that sort of thing belongs in the shoutbox. There are ways around that if the sites are to work together though.
For instance while I'm completely against posting a link to [a][s] as a story I could perhaps get behind posting a monthly update that links to the various [a][s] posts from that month as well as a sentence or two summarising the contents. That way there is a submission that adds value and forms a tie between the sites. Similarly [a][s] often posts interesting commentary on various issues and it would be good if perhaps some of those commentaries were on or partly related to a recent article on Flayrah, again with a link.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
Huh, I wonder who could possibly do something like that ...
I kept watching my wonderfully witty bon mots disappear off the screen on Newsbytes, and I wanted a way to keep them handy, like maybe an archive or something, so I freaking made one.
And don't give me the, "But, crossie, I'm busy!" bit either. I work forty hours a week at a crappy job and I still have time to be the second most active contributor despite spending a month of the time listed in the Recent Contributors with a busted computer, so suck it up, soldier.
If you would like to see Flayrah feature more news stories, submit more freaking news stories, but you better buckle down, because the only dude more active me on the contribution list is also a reviewer! And, yes, I realize you're in South Africa, which is not exactly the largest spoke on the furry hub, but it's called Google. You might've heard of it; it's pretty awesome.
Last part wasn't necessary... like at all.
Yeah, I should definitely stop commenting again.
Really unnecessarily aggressive but I'll respond anyway...
I could do it myself but if we're talking about Flayrah and [a][s] working together and there is an [a][s] writer on Flayrah that perhaps they should get first option of posting their own stuff here. That's building a collaboration rather than just using their work as a tool to further our own goals. Seems polite, yes?
And while I could do it myself... I don't know if you've heard of Ariana Huffington but she had a blog. Instead of just posting everything herself she invited more contributors and it's now a fairly large and prominent internet news site. Flayrah can only grow if we get more people.
I'm not quite sure if you were trying to impress me but 40 hours isn't a big deal. As far as I know that's fairly standard practice. I do that in my studies too. I also study Japanese in my spare time, am an admin on a furry site, have my own blog where I try post at least once a week and am supposed to be commenting on SoFurry to fulfil my role as ambassador. That's not counting that I'd like some free time to myself to read, play games, chat to friends and watch stuff. You wouldn't call that unfair, would you? Since I am one of the biggest contributors here perhaps we can not go after me for not spending more of my time writing here for free?
Also not sure why you're telling me where I live. I know it a lot better than you and I don't think I've ever used it as an excuse, although I have complained about the internet here. I haven't posted much lately but if you look back you'll see I've done con reports, site launches, book reviews, site drama, animal stories and interviews. I think I'm more than pulling my weight here.
So.. more people = good and please don't attack me for no reason.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
Guys, when have I not been really unnecessarily aggressive? Apparently we've never met before; hi, I'm crossaffliction. I shout at people on the Internet.
But, anyway, yeah, [a][s] is out of your hands (except I don't think their bar to submission is drastically higher than ours. Probably just have to ask real nice.), and that's not what I'm talking about.
Yes, I know you used to contribute, but what have you done lately? And now you're fucking complaining about my contributions? How am I, a guy listed as a reviewer reading your "I think reviews are stupid, poopy articles and I wish people would stop posting them" comments supposed to take that? Yeah, I was rude, and attacked you, but at least I know I'm being rude. You're being a dick and you don't even realize it.
And the solution, as I pointed out, is marvelously simple; if you want more fucking news stories POST MORE FUCKING NEWS STORIES. But that would take fucking effort; it's much easier to make up bullshit "hey, we need more people contributing" excuses than actually do anything yourself, and best part is I'm in complete agreeance with you; I'm fucking shouting at you for two reasons, and the first is the whole "being nice" thing isn't getting you to submit, so let's try shouting. You might get angry enough to post; I don't know.
But the second reason is the one I've already used; stop being an asshole to us reviewers. Or at least don't act all high and mighty when one of them calls you on it; if you don't like reviews, well, my opinion on that is that is a sucky opinion, but if it really bothers you, you had better do something, because otherwise, I can tell you what the future of Flayrah looks like; my furry review boot stomping on your furry news face. Forever.
And, you know what, while I'm fucking here and ranting, take a look at that chart Green Reaper posted in the first comment; you want to know something depressing? That giant, out of nowhere spike in readers there in the end of last year; you know what that is? That's this. The whole fucking problem with this want of more furry news is that furries don't actually do anything newsworthy; according to the chart, by a wide margin, the singe most interesting thing any furry has done in the last three years is die.
So, uh, good luck with that furry news thing. You're going to need it.
tl:dr/less shouting version of both longer comments:
You should totally do that [a][s] monthly summary thing yourself, and also women can totally be on top, seriously, dude, what the hell?
I posted two weeks ago when I saw something I could develop into a story (Greenreaper didn't think my previous offer was relevant enough). I hadn't posted before for a while because I didn't have anything to contribute. If I had seen something I considered a worthwhile story then I would have posted it but I'm just one person. There's a lot that happens out in the fandom that I don't see but others do.
Also, you're doing that thing where you read what you want me to write rather than what I actually write. It's something that frustrates me to no end. I didn't complain about your submissions and I didn't say reviews are stupid. You said all that yourself. My complaint has never been about reviews (I've reviewed two books and a movie here), it's been about the balance of stories.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
Excuses in the first paragraph, excuses (at best) in the second. If you know I do that, then the smart thing would be to take into consideration how I (or someone else) may misinterpret your comments. So, whether you don't like reviews or don't like the "mix" is beside the point. In either case you failed to take other's feelings into consideration, which is a dixk move, and managed to piss off at least one other person. That's your bad; I don't expect an apology, because, as pointed out, you're a dick.
I will apologize for calling you a South African, though.
Looking back on it, it wasn't much of an insult, consider you live in Hooker, OK... which is as much a "furry bastion".
Pots mocking the kettle for living outside the kitchen.
:)
And it actually reinforces the point I forgot to point out; South Africa cold be used as an excuse to not point out furry news as it's out of the way, just like being busy (an excuse Rakuen does use, frequently) is an excuse. What I was saying was "no excuses". Hell, even the busted laptop is an excuse I used; I could have used a library or something if I really wanted to.
Rakuen may think his comments about reviews are innocent, but they don't sound the way he thinks they do to a guy actually writing them; he likes reviews, they should just be kept apart ... heid.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Except when he's being a pussy. *ducks*
But anyway! As I explained recently to another contributor, I am mindful of the story mix; the best way to influence it is to contribute, as it gives me more choice in what to publish when.
Yeah, they're not like that jerk who writes articles that are 10 miles long and take 2 weeks to edit...
Forgot his name... but he's a jerk :)
You had me at dicks fuck assholes.
I can't take into account how you'll misinterpret my comments because your interpretation isn't based on what I actually write. Aside from a typo every now and then I write exactly what I mean to say. The issue comes when one tries to expand it beyond what I've said. Wanting to infer more meaning is one thing but then you need to understand that you're straying away from what I've actually said and perhaps from my meaning. In that case you must either prefix such statements to convey accurate meaning ("I think you're saying..." "It sounds like..." "Perhaps..." "Maybe..." etc) or actually ask me.
With other correspondence I can see how you might have come to the provisional conclusion that I don't like reviews but that needs to actually be then checked against reality. That is, I did not ever say I don't like reviews and, the inference that I don't, can't be reconciled with me having already written and posted three book reviews and two movie reviews (Not to mention several game reviews in my journals on other sites).
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
"Blah, blah, blah, none of this is my fault."
Okay, we get it, your writing is perfect, I just have shitty reading skills. I'm sorry, I'll try not to bother you with my dumbass kindergarten reading level and let you make your perfectly constructed comments about ... whatever the fuck you're talking about, my poor little mind is just too small to comprehend.
Jesus, Rakuen, I said I didn't expect an apology, but I didn't expect you to rub it in.
Good god, just fuck already :D
Okay, that was actually funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeDk6ZeGNnU
And it was a good story. Not too long for the audience, lots of links for those who want to find more, and of course a cute picture. If we had one or two of these a month from ten people, we'd be golden.
We're not quite there yet, judging by our recent contributor list, but it's getting close.
"The whole fucking problem with this want of more furry news is that furries don't actually do anything newsworthy; according to the chart, by a wide margin, the singe most interesting thing any furry has done in the last three years is die."
On the plus side, I know a lot of people in this world who feel insignifant and go "If I die tomorrow no one would care."
Between that obit and the one on Lemonade Coyote, I think it's fair to say that when you die as a furry, people care. They'd not going to glance over your obit blurb to get to the sports section as they will in your human one. That's not a bad thing.
Why do you get these days where you are uncharacteristically aggressive to users you disagree with, but otherwise seem to respect?
That might not be a bad idea. I really enjoy and appreciate the reviews and they often expose me to new and interesting things too but the more newsy and editorial content is valuable stuff and shouldn't be pushed out of sight too quickly.
Wish I had more to contribute because I really feel that Flayrah performs an important function and I've never felt that any other furry news source had such an accurate focus on genuine interestingness as here.
A newsbyte now and then is helpful, if you have one! Maybe a friend mentioned something interesting; or perhaps you played a furry-relevant game and want to share it with us (or write one of those dreaded reviews . . .).
Filtering today's information-rich world can be a valuable service. Flayrah is in part a furry filter, though we also grind our own beans. (At least we're not writing recycled top-ten lists of llamas who wish they were models.)
I'm not familiar with llamas who wish they were models, but I have noticed that between about 1850 and 1950 or 1960, it was common in talking-animal fantasies to assume that all animals really hero-worshipped humans, and wished that they were humans, too, or were jealous of us because they weren't.
Fred Patten
I don't know if its been suggested already (I'm kind of too lazy to read all 80 some odd posts). Flayrah is not really as well known as you guys would like to believe. I found it around two years ago because I was searching for news on an upcoming event and I didn't know the name, so I google searched "furry news" and this site came up. Doing a banner ad campaign on the top furry websites would definitely help you get your name out there. Don't just use the tag "furry food for thought", but let visitors know what you have. "Con news and more", "Pre-furred News from around the globe", or something similar.
Something else you might consider is to borrow a couple of ideas from standard news papers. For example: you could do opinion pieces. The right ones of those generate alot of traffic and discussion. As long as you don't let Opinion pieces take up too much of the pie, you should be fine. Standard news papers do well with an opinion piece or an editors word, etc... Doing a "Dear Abby" or something might help as well. Point is, that is all still news and that will give more than one type of person something to read and be interested in. Because lets face it, the only thing most people can agree on, is that they don't like news.
I've always considered your news content to be fair, balanced, and objective (all mainstream news forget the last part). I do think the idea of having banner ads on the big name con sites would be a great idea, as well as doing your usual of listing their happenings here.
This is just my $.02 worth.
What a great idea. I should write an article on this. Oh wait. But it is good to hear someone else chime in on promoting Flayrah more. When rabbits get the word out they thump their hing paw on the ground. Well I am thumping my hand paw on here to get the word out. I think it is something we all should do. I saw the Flayrah logo (?) in light blue. I would like to cut and paste that and get a few cons out there I work with to promote this news medium more. I would do that with FNN also if they are still active. Are they?
Give me the link to the Flayrah logo as a banner and I will do my best to get it out there.
thanks for posting.
FNN is still online and reposting news from Flayrah, and podcasts; it also has bi-monthly posts about featured fursuiters from Kijani, but otherwise does not appear to be publishing original content. Their comments system has been closed, possibly due to spam.
The image in the article is a logo offered by darkdoomer - if you click it, you get a larger version. I will try putting together some cards for distribution at Califur if I get time today, with Twitter addresses etc. That card or a modified version may be useful as a banner as well, but it may not be available until after the convention; I've got a lot to do today, and an early flight tomorrow! :-)
Oh cool. I wish I had known you were going I would have gotten you some fliers and other stuff to drop off there.
check out Jeff Goode's Furson non Grata. It will be playing there. It played at Wild Nights last month to a stand up ovation so I would expect the same from professional cast.
Have fun
The tagline is intended to evoke the spirit of the site (as is the name itself) without being too restrictive as to content. If people look next to it, they see the major sections of our coverage, which also act as links.
Our meta description, designed to be shown by search engines, is more to the point:
We have a considerable amount of "opinion" content, (including this piece). Concern has been raised over the frequency of reviews, though since many act as the first announcement of the work, I'd class some of them as news as well.
I'm hesitant to add an advice column; frankly, while I appreciate the honest effort some put into them, I don't consider them newsworthy. Many podcasts (such as FurCast) already handle that audience within the fandom, as does Grubbs Grizzly.
One thing I'd like that we don't currently have are editorial cartoons. A picture can tell a thousand words, yet we often only have words.
I think that Greenreaper is an extraordinary individual who does and has done great service to this fandom with far too little thanks, and that he who does all the hard work is entitled to make the decisions. So far, he seems to me to have done just fine. I enjoy Flayrah every day at a price I'm not about to complain about.
Green does a fantastic job. He and his crew. There is a crew right? I am mostly concerned with getting the word out there on Flayrah. Let more of the fandom know. That way it would likely grow, get more stories and more input into it. Sometimes it takes time for someone to be noticed, to get credit for what they have accomplished and what they are working towards.
Flayrah has an occasionally-updated staff page and a complete list of contributors (a 90-day version is in our sidebar).
Mostly, though, we just shout at each other in the comments.
Not as much as on Youtube though, at least this "shouting" is somewhat intelligible and doesn't make me want to gauge my eyes out with a fork.
Yeah, but at least YouTube has character limits and WHAT DO YOU MEAN WE'RE NOT AS ANNOYING AS YOUTUBE, YOU IDIOT!
A new feature would be a You tube link of the week. I don't think this would ever dry up. If it is at a con make sure they don't all come from the East or West coast or one con in particular but spread out.
Once again, that would be a great thing for you to do.
Though, seeing as how I'm linking and submitting a monthly column at the last minute again, maybe you might want to round up someone else if you do go weekly.
By the way, GR, at this point this year is all fucked up with the columns, and you're headed off to a con, so no biggie if it's not posted until next month, okay (I'll try and do all the HTML stuff myself, but I'm still not terribly confident).
If you find any newsworthy or just exceptionally good videos of interest to furry fans, you're welcome to post them at any time, either as newsbytes (you can use an <a> tag to link to the video with custom text), or as a video post.
If you're looking to tell a story with videos, it would be better to collect several in a single piece, rather than just post a video every week. An example would be this collection of videos of furry games on Steam. Such content has greater value for our readers, and for the site. (After all, if they're bored, they can just go on YouTube themselves.)
As long as furries are dying, being arrested, or writing books, Flayrah will always have content.
As long as furry conventions are occurring, donating money, or banning minors, Flayrah will always have content.
As long as people are surveying the furry fandom, Flayrah will always have content.
Also, inb4 Xydexx shows up.
"As long as furries are dying, being arrested ..."
Yeah, somebody go kill someone; it's two for one.
Who do you propose?
A video column. Hmmmmmm. I will wait till after Green gets back to see where this can go.
Well, that's politer than I was ... he got like one email saying "I think I'm going to do this" and he replied back with "what?" and then I submitted.
Many times in the past when I have made comments about something in the fandom someone has said. "why don't you do it then"? So I have. If I am going to submit videos, I will need to figure how I want to do this. I will talk with Green and see what he would like to see and go from there. It won't be every week but something sort of regular at least
That is just what got me to co-start the first anime fan club, to edit the first Furry short-story anthology, and to create the Ursa Major Awards; complaining that someone should do such a thing, and having everyone answer, "Well, Fred, if you feel so strongly about it, why don't you do it yourself?"
Fred Patten
Come to think of it, didn't Grubbs Grizzly move Ask Papabear to its own domain because he sensed FNN's impending demise? Maybe he could be convinced to move here? I'm not sure if he's making money off AP, but it would certainly save him money on the domain at least.
I think initially it was less hassle to syndicate than to have his own site, but now he's set one up . . . domains are cheap, and I imagine he enjoys the flexibility of being able to present pieces as he wishes.
We could perhaps syndicate them, if Grubbs wanted us to (though given his past interaction with and response to Flayrah's audience, I'm dubious). I still have an aversion to them as news content, in part because they regularly promote a single person's opinion on wide-ranging personal topics on which they may not be qualified to give advice.
I'd suggest people ask professionals (where appropriate), or their friends; at least they'd get multiple opinions, and research suggests they might trust them more coming from friends or authorities in the field.
The only advice column I read regularly is that of The Onion, which avoids this issue by not actually giving advice.
From what I read on FNN, it would take about three "I think I have a mental disease" columns (which was EVERY SINGLE ONE) and I would flip out in the comments like you ... could probably actually believe, considering flipping out in the comments is what I do, but it probably be interesting.
It basically just gives anyone trolling furries with "furry is a mental illness" something to link to. It was the most depressing thing until [a][s] ran a column explaining to furries how to pee.
I will admit that particular column had me scratching my head. A lot of things were said with one reference they used to back their claim, however I saw nothing about urination and it's partake to a psyche of sexuality or dominate/submissive social structure in the abstract. No I'm not going to pay 35 dollars to go searching though the entire document.
My guess is that this is more a placebo effect. It works for the columnist in question, he recommends it to others. If it works for them that's all and good, but it seems it's all about setting up the placebo rather than actual science. I Particularly feel this way since a Google search on the topic of peeing anxiety didn't return anything even close to what the columnist suggested as a treatment of the condition. If such an unusual form of treatment were common place and shown in studies, I would think I'd see it in more places then just [a][s].
But whatever sails you ship, doesn't hurt.
I just wonder how the columnist knew how many furries were using the stalls to urinate as opposed to other purposes... or how those in the stalls were furries... did he knock and ask? Maybe furries like Mexican food and that's why they're lining up? Maybe they can't use the urinals for their needs?
What happens if someone suffers from sexual anxiety as well? Won't that make the situation worse?
Hi Sonious. This is a bit of a delayed reply, as I've been having off having fun at Confuzzled. Back in the real world now.
The reference I made in my article was just a link to some research on paruresis, to demonstrate that the condition exists and is taken seriously. My technique isn't published anywhere formally, as far as I'm aware. I've taken a common NLP technique, as might be used to manage anxiety, and put a spin on it that will make sense to most furries. It's a variation on the picture-everyone-naked-when-public-speaking idea that you commonly hear bandied about (although I wouldn't recommend that one personally).
And, yeah, it is an odd article, what with the Jonah Lomu references and all. Hopefully it's an enjoyable read, whether you personally suffer from shy bladder or not. The technique is based on sound and well-understood NLP practices. It won't work for everyone, of course.
So, i'm not even going to read that "shy Bladder" article, because this is the first paragraph:
Um, what? No. I'm not shy using urinals and none of the furries I've met are either.
Perhaps not, but having been to plenty of furry cons in my time, I don't see males using the urinals. I see all the stalls being taken by males pissing. And that is quite the disadvantage when you actually need to use the stall for more.. stall-like procedures.
Seriously, I've been near the dealer's den on staff at various cons where we think people are actually having sex in the restrooms, so when we go in and see a lineup of guys waiting for the stalls to open and four open urinals, it's .. yeah. It was funny explaining it to hotel security though :D
This may have more to do with it than anything. If so that's not only a concern about furry but about the future of gender segregated bathrooms. Basically the reason we have such things is so people have a sense of security, particularly females, that people aren't 'checking them out' while they're in the bathrooms. However, now you have a fandom where there are more than a quarter who are on the hetero side of the Kinsley scale having to worry about being checked out by the those on the gay side. As gay people become more prevalent in society, I think this gender divided bathroom scheme is going to start coming apart at the seams.
I mean I certainly don't have "piss anxiety" but I remember late night at AC one time where I was leaving a room party in the Westin and made my way to the public bathroom by the bar. I pushed the door inward when this leg wrapped around the door and this old man wearing a croc cap peaked his head peeked his head out and said in a scratchy voice "Need to use the rest room?"
So either the bathroom was full, or this guy was being a creepy. It startled me either way where I didn't care which it was and then decided to hold it till I got back to the Double Tree. I turned away without a word as I guess I didn't even know what to say in that kind of a situation. "Guess not?" he called out.
While you're joking that it's that people are having sex in the bathrooms, it may be the opposite problem. People don't want to be sexualized while in the bathrooms. Urinals tend to be rather out in the open where people can look over at what you're packing. Knowing the statistics it's far more likely to occur when the people you're around are more gay, so I will admit that when I have that particular concern it comes to mind more at furry conventions then when I use it at other events. I brave these thoughts, thinking to myself it's somewhat bigoted to think that just cause another may be gay means they'll lack public control or decency and use them anyway, though I doubt everyone who has these thoughts would do the same.
Now that you have an article that tells people that furries are going to be thinking sexual thoughts to help them piss is not going to help in that matter.
What you're describing, the oversexualization (or the fear of it) is an example of shy-bladder.
Then I think something bigger has been stumbled on here then just a furry issue. What's going to happen when gayness is more socially accepted? I think what happens at a furry convention is going to become more and more common unless it's corrected in one of two ways.
Making urinals a bit more private via dividing walls, or a gender neutral bathroom architectue... which I do have an idea on how that would be accomplished. Came up with the idea when I read this article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/19/coy-mathis-colo-transgend_n_2910066.html
Better yet, the my proposed setup would probably be cheaper then the current segregated setup.
Are you serious? Do you really think people are going to check you out in a public restroom just because they're gay? I mean, that's just...awful. Simply awful. Would you treat women that way? This is a rhetorical question so, for the love of God, if the answer is yes please keep it to yourself lest you turn me into a frothing ball of fury.
Like...that is literally homophobia. You are literally afraid of gay men.
I'm not saying all gay people are going to do that. There are perverts of all sexuality. Yes, I would not want straight women standing next to me in a urinal either. Just as you wouldn't want a random straight guy being able to watch you on the throne. Does that make you sexist? Unless of course I'm wrong and you wouldn't mind a guy watching you piss...
People grow up with different expectations of privacy. The cause is theorized to be the introduction of bathrooms in the home.
I'm saying the thought that has crossed my mind, as irrational as it may be. Because if I thought it someone less able to check and balance the irrational thoughts has too. If you're going to take advantage of that openness by name calling me, then shame on you. If people can't express what they are thinking those thoughts get locked up. If they are locked up you cannot find solutions to problems that may lay hidden. You hinder progress and solutions for the sake of that someone might find my thoughts offensive, which no gay person has yet... just a straight guy and a woman.
Gay people can take it, they don't need you to defend them. If one does feel offended I will apologize to them, not to some proxy. It is disgustingly political. They are people who can as individuals state their offense. Hell there are probably some gay men who've had the SAME thought, just because you're gay doesn't mean they'll feel comfortable feeling exposed to the possibility of being checked at the urinal. In fact, if there are lots of gay people in this fandom, there are gay people using the stalls too. I'm bisexual by the way, so if I have homophobia then I have a problem.
I'm actually way more likely to be assaulted by a straight guy (though I make no assumptions upon seeing someone that they are straight.)
I didn't call you any names.
pls 2 not misgendering me kthx
Maybe they just needed to use a stall?
As explained during the adult body modification panel at this weekend's Califur, certain male genital piercings can also make the use of stalls advisable.
That's another explanation, but I would think not all that many furries have a Prince Albert.
You're too nice, Green Reaper.
I brought up the [a][s] pee article as an example of the annoying Internet trolls having something too prove them right, as Grubbs' constant having to tell people they probably shouldn't be asking him about their mental illness is pretty much all the proof those trolls need to prove furries have debilitating mental illnesses. Likewise, the pee article is proof, if you will, that furries, now backed up with anecdotal evidence (twice with Anon's comments here), that furries have such severe personality flaws that they can't even function like a normal human being.
My problem isn't with the advise given; I find it depressing that any bodily healthy male over the age of around 7 should have trouble peeing, and should so spectacularly fail at this act that people regularly notice. Hey, at least [a][s] saw it as a problem needing solving; I'm surprised it wasn't an article about how wonderful furries are for peeing sitting down like five year olds.
Though, thanks, Sonious, for that wonderful ramble through your own insecurities. The homophobia was a delightful surprise.
Here's a fun headline for those who associate furry and fetish.
Take away lesson; next time hotel security asks if you're all fucking in the stalls, say yes.
If that troll is straight ask him if he'd have no issue going alone into the men's room and pissing in a urinal in a gay bar. It's the same "mental problem". Just more subtle.
seriously, Sonious, that's really fucking homophobic.
And women are most against Unisex bathrooms, and you don't call them sexist or 'heterophobic'.
http://ts-si.org/thompson-&-gaughan/2499-the-fallacy-of-gender-blind-bathrooms
In fact the statement I made can be seen just as bigoted at straight guys, saying they're insecure about doing so. Didn't claim the insecurity was rational, just that it exists.
Ain't alone in those insecurities, and I feel they'll continue. I do think this problem will grow over time particularly with people who are ACTUALLY homophobic. People have instinctual thoughts which their intelligence can chuck aside. Some people don't have the intelligence to do so. In fact I would go so far as to say a lot of out gay men use the stalls in public rooms if the urinals aren't walled just to AVOID the accusations of glancing. Last thing you need is some homophobe causing a scene because of his paranoia of that queer looking over at his junk. So with the combination of gays protecting their own ass and insecure straight you're going to see more and more men rooms become a line heavy as the lady's... maybe even worse since the space is being taken up by abandoned urinals.
In the meanwhile, if there is a case of shy bladder occurring, and it's causing a backup then maybe people need to be thinking about architecture instead of trying to fix people. Good walls make good neighbors.
But I guess if you want to try and fix people, well you can design bathroom with that in mind too: Here's the final exam.
Why would I redesign the bathroom if I want to fix people?
The problem is the people; it's their hangups, not the goddamned bathroom's.
Then we should put a push bar on all doors that require you to pull.
We should go back to DOS because it's not the computer designer's fault people are so stupid to use command lines.
I don't know, I'm just a person who believes that if there's a disconnect that's it's the designers fault, not the user's: http://www.amazon.com/Design-Everyday-Things-Donald-Norman/dp/0465067107
As a disclaimer there was one bathroom I went to that everyone was using the stall... you want to know why? The urinals were set up along a wall which was facing the entryway of the bathroom... which had NO DOOR! Yeah, no... sometime's it's design. The only reason I think they could get away with it is that the bathroom was hidden in a basement labyrinth.
On a more comedic note, the comment's for an article on Flayrah's future somehow has turned to the future of bathroom layout... coincidence?
DOS was a flawed system; a push bar on a pull door is a flawed system; that one bathroom you describe is a flawed system.
The normal public bathroom layout, with urinals and stalls in a normal position; NOT a flawed system. I'm a big fan, actually. This case, yes, the users are flawed. The inability of the users to use this system correctly is NOT a design flaw; it's a sign of immaturity.
For fuck's sake, if there's three urinals and the one on the far right is occupied you take the far left, sure, that's manners, but if only the middle is open, you take the middle because you gotta pee, and only fucking losers use the stalls when there's a urinal open. Yeah, maybe the guy on the far left is gonna check you out, and sure that's creepy, but, really who cares? He's a creepy guy, but that's HIS problem, not yours (if he starts complimenting your dick or, worse, criticizing it or whatever, yeah, I guess you're entitled to a freakout, but that doesn't happen very often). Heck, there's a chance the guy on the right is so worried YOU'RE going to check his dick out that he never even thinks about YOUR dick. But most likely of all is that everybody just pees and that's it, because, seriously, who fucking checks out dicks at a urinal?
Yes, if a woman walks into a restroom that happens to be unisex and there is a man in doing his thing, there's a chance she's going to get sexually appraised. But how is that any FUCKING different than any other room? Yeah, it would be nice if guys didn't appraise women and women didn't appraise men and gay guys didn't appraise other guys and gay women didn't appraise other women and balloon fetishists didn't appraise balloons and, yeah, that sucks, and it would be nice if nobody ever silently (or even not silently) judged anyone else, but a world where that never happens is a magical fantasy world that makes My Little Pony look like Warhammer 40K. You know what it's like? It's like having to pee. Nobody enjoys it, but pee happens.
And when it happens, you gotta man up and use a urinal.
Because nobody wants to be the loser who fucking uses a stall to pee; everybody can hear you, dude.
FUN FACT: 90% of my half of this debate were written on a toilet.
If there is a preference for a divider between urinals and there is not one how is that not a flawed system? I mean, it doesn't matter what you think about the user. The user is going to do what the user is going to do. You can bitch about the user all you want, but if the user is going to the stalls that means there is a problem, whether the designer wishes to address it or not.
Or you could, you know use a bathroom OTHER than the one next to the dealer's den. There are a lot of mostly unused facilities at every con I go to, and guess what I do note them quite easily. Look for places without a lot of foot-traffic or slightly off the beaten path. If you're bitching about the lines in the room next to the Ballroom after Kage's Story Hour gets out, then that's your own damn fault.
This is the thread that never ends, tra-la-la-la-la!
This is the thread that never ends, la-la-la-tra-la!
Hm, I wasn't aware of (or, at least, don't remember) that thread. However, none of those things looked like attacks until after he withdrew his comments (unless I'm reading something wrong?).
There does seem to be a bit of a skew in interpretation, but what I can determine is this, that while a advise column seems like a good idea, I don't think I would take advise from this guy. His commenters stating that Flayrah's commentators throw out flak and vitrol while they themselves by stating such were doing the same without any sense of irony is telling to his target audience.
It just sounds like the kind of person who can't take anyone questioning his advise or what he has to say or do. However, if someone questions you it's okay to question them with the same (interpreted) pointedness, but when YOU do it, it's not 'evil' or 'hurtful'.
I mean, here's a quote from one of the commenters of that article:
"Ha ha ha, wow, I guess I was right about that website. It's a mean, hateful, critic website in my view often. :/
I'm afraid to see that article because I may see all the hate with low ratings, the bad comments with there forcing opinion crap and other. I'm guessing the problem with that there main so called "open" view had sticky opinions stuck on the top of there head, and refuse to change, and bash anyone who has a new idea, don't know though. :P"
Well then to that commentator you're enslaved by illusion, the article has 5/5 rating. That's not an opinion, that's a fact, get over it.
With that I think our target audiences are different then Papa Bear's. If an advise columnist is willing to let their fans lie to themselves to make himself feel warranted because he's having negative feelings towards some place, then I'd question if his advise is backed by emotion or facts.
I wouldn't take advise from him after I saw him suggest an FtM furry join groups meant for female (women) furries, which, seriously dude, what the hell?
(Incidentally that was what got me wondering about the prevalence of sexism in furry.)
There weren't any. He acted hypersensitive when i posted a link to an article about what makes business plans succeed, that mentioned a need for candor about risks. And i pointed out previous posts he made about at least 3 business ideas he announced that didn't happen, and wondered why. You can't rent an apartment or get a job without questions about cred... but apparently being a furry advice columnist is all the cred you need to start an organization. Whoah, sorry i asked.
Well, in Grubbs' defense, we are all badmouthing the guy behind his back in the comments section of an article that has nothing to do with him (with a sidetrip to snipe at [a][s] while we were at it).
That being said, hatred and vitriol? I have no idea where he sees that ...
True... it's talking about 1 thing that happened here though, and his site made it a 2-way street. But in the end it was forgettable and nobody will have a problem if he posts regular stuff here.
Ducks are rapists. They have been designed by nature to be sick little creatures. They will drown their mates, they will try to breed with dead females also. Just amazing about these water fowl. It should also be noted they have corkscrew penis. The females internal organs work counter clockwise opposite of the male.
But with all this going against them they still manage to make ducklings.
This has nothing to do with the original thread but then again neither does someone using a urinal vs a stall either.
Hey, at least we didn't break Godwin's Law.
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