Otherkin to feature in hour-long Logo 'What?!' documentary
As foreshadowed last year, Logo has bought distribution rights to an hour-long documentary on otherkin and therians from the UK's Zig Zag Productions (presumably no relation...):
The film promises to follow a teenager from Brunswick, Georgia, who believes he is a wolf, and is aiming to confirm this by changing his name legally to his wolf name, Shiro. It also introduces the viewer to a commune of ‘otherkin’ in upstate New York that includes a human ‘raccoon’ and ‘leopard’ in an “inter species poly-amorous relationship.”
The sixty-minute segment is to air in early 2013 as part of the What?! documentary series. Zig Zag is also negotiating distribution in other parts of the world. [O. Scribner]
Update (30 April): The documentary has been released.
While arguably exploitative (executive programming VP: “Logo viewers are fascinated with programming that explores extremes in our society”), the channel's own description highlights why they chose to buy the documentary:
At the end of the day all our programming is about being your fierce, unconventional self (it's true – think about it). We chose the name "Logo" because a logo is an identity and nothing's more important than having your own, unique identity, and making it work for you. For us, the word logo is about identity, about being comfortable in your own skin. It's about being who you are.
The What?! series invites viewers to "step outside your comfort zone"; it most recently covered funeral protester Fred Phelps and his family.
Shiro, founder of otherkin community Wulf Howl, had formerly opposed the documentary and made a statement regarding his participation:
I have decided to speak to ZigZag productions about -MY- experience as a wolf therianthrope. This has nothing to do with the community at large. [...] By appearing in this film, I can assure that at least one perspective of a reasonable person in the community is represented.
About the author
GreenReaper (Laurence Parry) — read stories — contact (login required)a developer, editor and Kai Norn from London, United Kingdom, interested in wikis and computers
Small fuzzy creature who likes cheese & carrots. Founder of WikiFur, lead admin of Inkbunny, and Editor-in-Chief of Flayrah.
Comments
I'm fairly ambivalent in whether or not this is a good thing. It all depends on the attitude of the show's creators; on one hand, it could be a shockumentary (which in all honestly is the more likely), but on the other it could be a neutral, "hey, this exists" kind of thing.
Even if it is a shockumentary, though, not everyone who watches will be from a judgmental point of view (I sometimes complain that "My Strange Addiction" should show more actual addictions, instead of alternative lifestyles that calling it an addiction will portray in a negative light).
Either way, I'm going to try to catch this.
I'm glad that Therianthropes are going to be able to tell their stories on documentary TV, a rarity, since most shows have had the focus on Furries up to now. I know a few Therians who are Furries also.
I must woof that I love the theme of the Logo network, it's something I'd be interested in watching myself!
Boomer
Doggone it, double post, sorry. Ajax error, I think you should switch to Comet.
While I'm at it, Shiro seems pretty cool, his profile lists that he's a Shaggy Dog movie fan, just like me..
Boomer
Believes he is a wolf... inter-species poly-amorous relationship...
It's all really about sex, isn't it?
Not that it is a bad thing... or good.
Well, I'll be...
You don't know how many times I will see a therian/otherkin in a "pack" (whether it is poly-amorous or not) and think, "Why?". I mean I guess I could understand pack animals doing so, but then you get like Vampire/demon/angel/potato packs and I guess I don't get it? Oh well. Not my place to judge.
Also, a polyamorous relationship doesn't mean they're all having sex. I know polyamorous asexuals, and equating polyamory to sex is erasing to them.
This could be interesting. I just found it so ironic that Shiro wants to give the perspective of a "reasonable" person while simultaneously claiming that he is a wolf. He's no more a wolf than he is a teapot. (Shared features due to evolution aside.)
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
I highly doubt he believes he is physically a wolf. :/
Physically, mentally, spiritually. It doesn't really matter in what way he believes it because none of them can be true. None of them will have objective supporting evidence and all of them violate known laws of science.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
Until there's more research done into it I don't think you can say there will never be "objective supporting evidence"; maybe it's just an example of a neuroatypical disorder or the like.
Also, I thought the point of sprituality is that it doesn't matter if it "violate[s] known laws of science"?
I can't say for certain there never will be but I can say for certain that at the moment there is none and there is no reason to take any such claim seriously. A neurological disorder doesn't mean you are in any way a wolf, it just means your are deluded.
And yes it does matter if something violates the laws of science because not only does that mean it is unsupported but it is contradicting a body of knowledge that can pretty much explain anything in the universe. We don't have all the details but we know a lot and our technology, which works, can split the atom, can detect fundamental particles, can remotely land a robot on another planet and can sequence our entire genome. The chances that something meaningful exists that has evaded our detection and whose existence isn't necessary when explaining all that we can explain is so infinitesimally small it's a safe bet to assume it just doesn't exist.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
As for the first part: I don't know, a trans person has a neuroatypical trait that makes their psychological gender incongruent with their biological sex; it doesn't make them any less of a man/woman/whatever. Not saying this is the same thing as transsexuality, but differences in one's brain can make a difference in the reality of that person.
As for the second part, you're missing my point. If we live in a country where it is perfectly fine to reject evolution, then it is perfectly fine to believe one has the soul of or is spiritually connected to a wolf. In fact plenty of people that have at least some belief in a creator are, at least in other aspects of their lives, completely rational-thinking beings. It's just not really anyone else's place to police identities.
It's never perfectly fine to just reject science. People do it but that doesn't make it acceptable. It's got nothing to do with identities but to do with what is supported by evidence, what someone is justified in believing. You can't try side-step the issue by talking about other aspects of their lives. If someone is rational in everything except believing that chocolate-chip cookies cure cancer that doesn't mean that disagreeing that chocolate-chip cookies cure cancer is policing his identity. It's a claim that he is not justified in making in the first place.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
Typed up a long response, there was an ajax error, and I realized I have no plans to argue on the Internet this week, so I'm not gonna retype it, I'm just going to agree to disagree.
May the Force be with you.
I do not have the need nor desire to 'justify' my personal belief system. Likewise, you don't have the authority to tell me how to live my life. My belief effects me and me alone, and how I choose to identify. Your 'cookies to cure cancer' analogy does not apply, has the possibility to effect the treatment of other people. I identify spiritually, psychologically, and socially as a wolf. This is my business, my choice, and my identity. It does -NOT- effect you or anybody else on this planet for that matter. My right to believe what I want does not intrude on any of your rights, so stop trying to intrude on mine. Live and let live.
Shiro Ulv
That's an important point. It's interesting that whatever group someone is in, its members want to 'own' a portion of the group's thoughts on certain issues. That might be important for a strong group identity. Society likes the herd, but subcultures seem to do it that much more!
It's like drinkers at a bar, the others say to have another brew when you try to leave. Still, if you want to grow individually, it's something that has to be done sometimes. People will try to give every other reason for being like that and create the hugest smoke screen, but at the heart of it I think that's what it's about when people get upset.
You might be dealing with this now with your name change, it's kinda the same thing when you think about it. The decision is at the junction of the public's needs and your free will as an individual, as the name change guides will tell you. Of course, the judge has the mighty hand too..
I would be really interested in what happens in your name change case and what happens with it in court. Do you have a blog or some place you are writing about it?
I'm glad that you've taken the step to go on TV and tell your story. I don't think I have the Logo channel, but maybe I can see it on line if I can find out when the Therian show is on.
Boomer
Generally, name changes are almost always approved if they are not obscene or done for fraudulent purposes.
Shiro Ulv
That's true in most states, so hopefully you have a state that's more on the liberal side with it. Hopefully your show will come back and film some more, when you go to court, and show what the outcome is.
Boomer
I'm sorry that your name change got rejected, and it shouldn't have. It is also (in my opinion) odd that you had to be fingerprinted as part of the process. In the State of Georgia, you simply file a petition seeking a change of name and go before a judge to confirm it. It's a straightforward and easy process. (although a bit more expensive than I would like) The reason I selected "Shiro Ulv" is because it is actually a name. "Shiro" means white in Japanese, and is used by many as a first name. "Ulv" means wolf in Norwegian. I can see name changes with suffixes such as "the dog" or "the wolf" being rejected - and it's quite a shame. I would recommend being more cryptic with it, yet still establishing a sense of identity. Unfortunately, we won't know the outcome of mine for a few months because the hearing is suspended while I am fighting false charges that have been made against me and they will not change a name while charges are pending.
Shiro Ulv
Bit of curiosity here but why are you using the word for white when you claim to be a black wolf?
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
I received the name 'Shiro' from a close friend, saying the name fits me. This was back in 2009 when I was still under the impression that I was a white wolf. (cameo shifts) I had a close online friend who called me 'Ulv' because she was from Norway. I combined the named and used them as my identity ever since. Despite being a Black Wolf, I still feel the name fits my identity. It has a lot of pleasant history attached with it, and I simply like it.
Shiro Ulv
I'm back, I didn't answer before because I lost track of the thread.
I think that there are a few issues that it was rejected. I think I would have fared better if I had more thorough background information about why I wanted the change. I followed a name change book and sources on line, and they all seemed to say it was easy, and if there was no obscenity, attempt to use a new name to defraud or escape debt, then almost any name you could come up with should go through.
Going by that, I tried to keep my petition really simple and didn't attach a lot of background to it, just that I liked the new name, it fit me better, that my friends knew me as Boomer The Dog, and I was inspired by my dad changing his name.
Now I realize that it's easy for regular name changes, like if you change from Joe to Bob, or going to a female type name to male name for example, but it doesn't seem to apply to what they'd consider an unusual name change, so my case was held over for a special evidentiary hearing, and I had to testify.
Another thing is that Pennsylvania seems to be a tough state for unusual name changes, they don't have a good history of allowing them. It must be so unheard of that they didn't seem to know what to make of it when I went to give my petition to the court clerk. He had a laugh about it as to be expected, but I was also was warned that the court might see the name as inappropriate, and that the judge might not grant my petition.
The clerk even suggested that I could change it, going with 'Boomer' only and leaving off 'The Dog', and gave an example of an unusual name, 'What if someone came in and wanted to name themselves Joe Pittsburgh, do you think we should grant it?' I barked that I didn't think that would be a bad thing.
The problem with going for another name is that I'm really Boomer The Dog and have been for such a long time that it's my established identity, and I couldn't see having a different name.
I can see a cloudy side of things if I let my mind wonder, like Pittsburgh isn't being as friendly to Furries, while Anthrocon, a convention for Furries, is based here.
Pittsburgh is a city that's losing population to other areas, and they could use some cool new people here. Even if most Furries wouldn't want to change their names, Pittsburgh at least looks more friendly to animal people if they could, I think.
If you have any ideas from your experience of filing for the name change, those might help others, especially if you have a blog where you've been writing about it.
It was great to see you and your family on the show, and how you guys are dealing with it, I liked what Logo did there.
Boomer
http://boomerthedog.net The shortest version of my Doggie info.
Sadly Boomer was one of the exceptions.
I haven't intruded on your life at all. Your belief probably doesn't effect anyone else and so might be harmless. You can believe whatever you like. But, if you have no evidence to support it you can't expect anyone else to just respect it or treat it as though it is real.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
You've never really complained about preaching, but otherwise you are this close to saying something stupid.
Frankly, it's none of your business to be discussing what -I- believe on a public forum. There's a saying that's rather accurate in this situation: "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." It honestly bewilders me that my life and decisions are so important to you that you continue to discuss and argue them. I choose to go through life enjoying experiences, rather than analyzing and discovering faults in things - I'm happier that way. You may want to try it sometime.
Shiro Ulv
Bravo wolf, you're on your way to Alpha, if you're not there already.. :) I haven't heard that line about great minds before, but instinctively it seems to be true. Those who are looking to make real change and seeing the larger picture aren't sitting around gossiping all day, they wouldn't have the time.
As a Dog I know what you mean about enjoying experiences. Woof woof!
Boomer
Just because someone has an odd belief and lives their lives through it doesn't mean they reject science. Just as someone who has a partner of the opposite gender doesn't mean they are rejecting gays just by being straight.
In fact a great many scientists have odd thoughts that might be considered spiritual. Sir Issac Newton, Albert Einstein. It doesn't mean they reject science or shun its methodologies, it's just they haven't gone out of their busy day of curing cancer, discovering dark matter, exploring the universe, so they haven't had too much time to try and argue on the internet their thesis on a deity's existence so they just leave it as a grey area while they deal with things they can actually prove and disprove, you know, science.
I think you're confusing two separate points I was making; one about whether it's okay to reject science and the other on justification of beliefs. I didn't say that one who had odd beliefs necessarily rejected science but was responding to Equivamp's assertion that it was acceptable to reject evolution. It isn't.
That said it also depends what the belief is. Some beliefs, such as we should treat all sexualities equally, are not scientific beliefs, although they should be informed by science. This is because they do not make a claim about how the world is. Other beliefs, such as those concerning the "supernatural" do make claims concerning how the world is and are in conflict with the methodologies of science. To a certain degree this doesn't mean that a person holding those beliefs is necessarily rejecting science but due to methodological differences (revelation vs testable observations, for example) that they hold two conflicting beliefs.
Just because people, like Newton, can hold conflicting beliefs and methodologies doesn't mean that their spiritual beliefs are not in conflict with science. Those people hold conflicting the beliefs in just the same way that there is a conflict when you say a murderer is a law-abiding citizen because they don't break any other laws. The murder conflicts with law-abiding and the holding of spiritual ideas, unsupported by evidence, conflicts with science.
Needless to say the internet wasn't around with Einstein or Newton and Newton was very much religious (although more cult religion than the mainstream variety) but Einstein's views on a deity's existence are available to us and were not complementary. To quote from a letter of his that was auctioned last year:
"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions."
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
there is one problem with this thought process of yours though.. it excludes the initial creation of life. i'm not talking about conception but the first living being. that miniscule first living thing in existence. science has not yet been able to create an actual living thing out of a nonliving organism yet. spirituality doesn't have to be opposite of science. i just don't think we're advanced enough to effectively measure it. with all that humankind knows we still have much to learn. to think we know even a fraction of what there is to know about the universe is sorta... prideful?
Scientists haven't created life but that doesn't really mean anything. We have been moving closer to doing it and there are several possible ways that life may have been started. While not actually creating life there have been experiments that have made some of the organic chemicals which we think would have been necessary for life to start.
"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
~John Stuart Mill~
as Socrates once said, "In order to know anything, we must first realize that we know nothing"
"Fuck you, I'm a dragon!" is *so* 2009, dahlings ~
Ah, great so just as if there is any real people with non-human souls was enough weirdness for people, they create this show to, what? Bring in people that are just going to make out their animals / mythical beings as the new "in" weirdo rebel thing... Don't "YOU THINK" that if there is any people who genuinely have non-human souls / etc, that this will not be very good for them?
And what has this even got to do with "flayrah" otherkin IS NOTHING TO DO WITH "FURRY".
If I ever get to meet the makers of this show/episode and could get away with it, I'd wreck them, I swear on my mam's life.
To be fair, we don't know what they're going to show yet, it could be an honest look, or not, but when you think about it, it has to be better than the portrayal of Furries in fantasy shows like CSI, which unfortunately most viewers took to be real.. ;)
Well actually some thought it was totally made up, until they met a real live Furry, then it was, 'Oh my gosh, CSI! I didn't know that Furries was a real thing!' If they were bold, they'd sometimes ask quietly, 'What about that it's a sexual thing..' I got that a couple of times after CSI.
I think that documentary TV in some ways is what the future is going to look like, because they are looking at what are now taboo topics and the fringes of life experience.
I don't see documentaries as trying to make a rebel thing out of their topics, it seems like they want to show something that's new and different, and try to find answers to the questions the audience might have, and with enough drama to make the show interesting.
There are some serious Were-people and Otherkin who enjoy the Furry scene, they just tend to keep quiet about it because of the way the wind is blowing currently. Rest assured if you go to a Furry convention, you're steps away from Otherkin, Therians, Weres, and more, those who have 'other' relationships with animals in some way. That innocent looking guy you made con friends with in the hall could be wishing he was on four feet, RIGHT NOW, as a full real timberwolf. Is that scary or what!?
Boomer
When therians pounce, the Dorsai are minutes away!
Most of us are logical and rational people. Being otherkin or therian does not make us wish to get on all four and hunt humans.
Shiro Ulv
Great that you dropped by. I was thinking of stereotypes there, the guy seemed to be a little scared, and I wanted to ease his mind.. :)
I haven't been in the Therian scene so far, but I know several, and they're far from being marauding predators, in fact they are some of the nicer friends I know in Furry, I guess because they have a sense of what they are. The only thing I notice is a gentle depression that sets in with some them at times, maybe from wanting to be closer to their totem animal and feel it more.
People are always going to think of the wolf legends and horror movies, that anyone wants to change into one, feels like another animal inside or identifies as something 'other' is having some kind of problem, an identity crisis, or is just plain nuts.
People seem to have it in their hearts that if someone connects to another animal that strongly, they don't want to be part of society, or they're throwing their Humanity away. It's a scary thing to some people, maybe they don't know why and can't express that, but I think it's one of the taboos they are dealing with.
I've had it happen when I've been in my costume, several times people at the church down the street stopped me and asked things like "Do you think God wants you to be a Dog?" and hope I'll drop by for services. It feels like a face-off between a couple of superpowers.. :)
Boomer
From "what I've heard", there's nothing "gentle" about depression.
Gentle Depression was my punk band's name.
"What I've Heard" was our first single.
I've got this coincidence thing down, dont'cha'know.
Yes, furries don't care about Otherkin so much that this story's comment section fucking exploded with furries posting multiple times within minutes of publication, including a long, emotional post by the fucking idiot furry who thinks Otherkin are of no interest to furries!
In fairness, it took a few days for the ball to get rolling.
The commenter may also be unaware that Flayrah is for "things (many) furs are interested in", not just "furry things".
I hate it when you fact check me, but anyway you ever worked in customer service?
At the very least, you've heard the phrase "The customer is always right."
Yeah, that's what we tell them to their faces. We nod our head, smile, then go to the back and do it the right way like you were trained to do it, because the customer is, if not exactly a fucking idiot, at least completely untrained and doesn't have any clue how it's fucking done.
Oh, you want the lettuce on your taco pizza chopped? Never mind that it's already fucking chopped, sure I'll chop it some more so you can get off to making me work extra for your crap.
What, you're telling me it makes it taste better? Really. You're going to try and tell me you know crap about taste when you just ordered fucking fake Mexican food from a fucking fake Italian chain restaurant in a town full to the brim with fucking REAL Mexican food, you fucking idiot.
THAT CAT DIED IN MY ARMS, YOU SON OF A BITCH!
...
Whoah.
I feel that I got a little off topic there.
What were we talking about again?
How to service customers, I believe . . .
My job was never "customer support", but I have years of supporting customers on IRC, newsgroups, WikiFur, IB and the like. Often they have a point. Sometimes, though, the best thing you can do is show them the door.
Sadly, there is little we can do for your cat, except perhaps to turn it into a fur zombie. Or taco meat.
Yeah, sorry about the video.
Oh, man, they really didn't like that story.
That's hilarious. Guess we got taco pizza fans.
Now what if the request had nothing to do with how the food is prepared?
What if I asked for the server to call me Daddy? Is the customer right in this case?
Dead serious response; the customer is so wrong you should go tell your manager that you are being sexually harassed. That is the one time the customer is not only wrong, but you are within your rights to tell them they are wrong to their face instead of just bitch about it behind their back.
Not quite as dead serious followup: I guess that doesn't apply if you're a prostitute, though.
I didn't even realize "call me Daddy" was neccesarily sexual.
I guess I've been sexually harassing the Pizza Hut staff for the past month. Oops.
Neither are the words "honey," "sweetie," "dear," "baby," "sugar" or even "boy" and "girl." However, the harasser's intent is not the issue; it's the harassee's interpretation. That's the way sexual harassment laws work, whether it's stupid or not.
You're a teenager, so it forgivable, especially when adults in this fandom are writing things like this where the level of willful stupidity is alarming.
I saw that. Only thing I have to say is that they used the term "polysexuality" wrong.
There once was a being called A. N. Otherkin
He grew hairy from his skin-a-gin
The mundanes cane along and pushed them in a-gin
Poor old A. N. Otherkin, begin (trying not to be human) again
That is not how you write a limerick.
Well, the documentary has been released . . . seems therians aren't all that happy about it. Of course, with the focus on young members of the community, it wasn't designed to be representative of the entire group to start with.
Thanks for posting the news about it, I probably wouldn't have found out about it so quickly, and also we don't have that channel here. I didn't even know the show's schedule, so Flayrah scores.
Boomer
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